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A question on charge back

- Would like to know the players opinion on this issue. If a player deposits using an E-wallet option like Firepay or ACH, and wins from that deposit, but in the few days before they are paid by the casino, that charge comes back as invalid or Non Sufficent Funds, and the player contacts the casino to make good on the charge back is the casino obligated to pay the customer the win. In other words the player technically was playing with the casinos money, because they did not have it at the time of deposit, when they did win. Again we are talking more about a new customer and not one who you have a long history with, who might have the chargebacks every month, but always makes good on them. Looking for all different types of input. Thanks Ted

- Quote: Originally Posted by virtualted Would like to know the players opinion on this issue. If a player deposits using an E-wallet option like Firepay or ACH, and wins from that deposit, but in the few days before they are paid by the casino, that charge comes back as invalid or Non Sufficent Funds, and the player contacts the casino to make good on the charge back is the casino obligated to pay the customer the win. In other words the player technically was playing with the casinos money, because they did not have it at the time of deposit, when they did win. Again we are talking more about a new customer and not one who you have a long history with, who might have the chargebacks every month, but always makes good on them. Looking for all different types of input. Thanks Ted Ted I don't like saying this, but any Casino that doesn't take a very tough line on this sort of behaviour is eventually going to take a hammering. There are enough 'cheaters' out there that if it ever became known you could do this and cash out your winnings with little trouble these 'problem players' would be all over the casino like a swarm of locusts. I am afraid the number of 'cheaters' would far outnumber the unfortunate innocent ones. Mitch

- Well, Ted, I can't help thinking you're just trying to find yet another reason not to pay one of your players. Yes, ok, if there's evidence of mass fraud then you might need to take a hard line, but I'm guessing it's simply a case of a player making a mistake. Somehow I imagine that if he'd lost you'd have made every possible effort to claim the funds, and though I don't know much about these e-wallet options I imagine you'd have succeeded. I know I'm taking a cynical attitude, but if you're honest I'm sure you'll agree it's not inappropriate given the history of your casinos.

- Yes, a bit cynical, but still appreciated. Remember if I was really looking to not pay the player, I would not have come here. The reason for my question was that in a case at the casino, the player used a bad phone number and name and e-mail address and will not be paid, because it was all fraudulent. I am talking about a player basically playing with an unauthorised marker or cash advance. Should they be entitled to a win from it if they make the unauthorised charges good, at a later date?

- you dont know if his intentions were good or bad though. He might have made a mistake. If he made good on it, regardless, you should pay him. In a land based casino, if you win and then your marker comes back NSF, they don't ask you for your winnings back. They just ask that you make good on the marker and then never extend you credit again. It's their decision. Since your casino used a third party, isn't it that parties problem? Meaning, isn't firepay responsible for taking the hit and leaving the casino without responsibility? I thought that's how they were working now.

- Hi Ted, Personally i would say to pay him, main reason is he will think you are a fair casino and will be happy to play there again in the future, with all the rogue casinos around one that shows good faith will always get a customer returning. just keep an eye on him for his next couple of deposits.

- Quote: Originally Posted by virtualted Yes, a bit cynical, but still appreciated. Remember if I was really looking to not pay the player, I would not have come here. The reason for my question was that in a case at the casino, the player used a bad phone number and name and e-mail address and will not be paid, because it was all fraudulent. I am talking about a player basically playing with an unauthorised marker or cash advance. Should they be entitled to a win from it if they make the unauthorised charges good, at a later date? If a player used a bad phone number, NAME and email address then of course your not gonna pay him, I doubt any online casino would. The original bit about a genuine player making a deposit by e-wallet (Whatever that is), winning and then the deposit being charged back. 1. If the player charged back then I wouldsay the casino has every right to close the account and forfeit the whole balance. 2. If the "E-Wallet" company charged back through insufficient funds this would be less clear cut IMHO. If it was a regular player then I would be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt once. If it was a new player, proberly not. Anyway if "E-Wallet" authorised the payment to the casino dont they check that there are sufficient funds and earmark them If they dont then maybe with new players you dont let them use the funds deposited until they are beyond chargeback for lack of funds.

- You need to find out whether the reason was NSF or was a mistake by the processor. If it came back NSF, you should not be obligated to pay. Using any other reasoning, that would allow me to bounce a check of say $10K with you, beat the hell out of you and then offer to make good because I didn't know the check was going to bounce. Can't allow that.

- Judgement call. If it's pretty clear this is a fraudulent player then you can probably get away with not paying him. But until that is shown, I would say you have a responsibility to pay him. You don't have to do it at once of course. Take your time to look into the circumstances. Casinos have my full support for fighting player fraud. It is as bad as casinos defrauding players.

- Quote: Originally Posted by spearmaster If it came back NSF, you should not be obligated to pay. Using any other reasoning, that would allow me to bounce a check of say $10K with you, beat the hell out of you and then offer to make good because I didn't know the check was going to bounce. Respectfully Spearmaster I disagree, The operative phrase here is "bounce a check". Accepting a check practically means extending credit since one is in effect accepting private money. Casinos either should not accept checks-i.e. extend credit- or should avail themselves of whatever legal redress after the fact. Either way the funds in question, the winnings, are beyond the initial transaction. The fact that there is an electronic character to this whole issue is what seems to complicate the issue for most people: Had the player in question been in a land based casino and after having cashing in his chips the casino found that the check bounced, he would not have anyone try to grab the funds from him. Legal proceedings could take place by the casino BUT strictly regarding the earlier transaction. Under no circumstances would it affect the resulting funds. The difference here is that the internet casino holds in trust the funds for the player. In effect it holds your wallet. It should not pick it. Incidentally this is my professional opinion legally. I am certain this would hold up in most common law jurisdictions. This is not of course to say that it affects operators currently or that it would be applicable under their licences. Notwithstanding the above however, I echo the sentiments of all involved in understanding that internet fraud is a problem. No credit means no such problems. If the charge doesn't come through don't let them play. Players are - rightfully- subjected to scrutiny when withdrawals are made. Deposits are made in about 2 minutes flat. Why? Casinos should excercise appropriate due dilligence in both occassions. The solution in conclusion therefore lies in making sure that the proverbial (and actual) money is in the Bank before going for the wallet. That's my 2 cents Anyway.

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